Breakfast With a Heathen EP6: Created for Hell? | Church Taxes, The Historical Jesus & Deconstruction Loneliness

In this episode, we tackle the dark theological implications of an all-knowing God: If the outcome is already known, did God create humanity just to send most of us to hell? We also dive into the heated debate over whether churches should lose their tax-exempt status if they fail to contribute tangibly to their communities.

Later, we analyze the "Telephone Game" of history regarding the existence of Jesus compared to figures like Alexander the Great, and address the personal side of leaving religion, from overcoming the guilt of enjoying secular music to the isolation of losing friends and family during deconstruction. Finally, we answer a listener's concern about whether you need a "goth" aesthetic to fit in as a Satanist.

💬 Viewer Question

"If the U.S. government mandated that churches must donate a specific percentage of their income to local charities to keep their tax-exempt status, do you think most churches would comply or close their doors?"

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:08

Good morning and welcome to Breakfast with a Heathen. I am your favorite heathen, Mike Smithgall, and welcome. This is my Sunday morning show. Um, it's a little bit of a cold day here in Chicago, uh, maybe the high 30s, I guess. It's supposed to get into mid-40s, but I am also getting on a plane and not too long, a few hours from now, and heading to Thailand, where at least today the high is about 88. So I'm so I'm in this weird position. I'm gonna also go to Japan, which is also cold at this time of year. So I'm leaving Chicago wearing a coat. Um, I'm gonna get to Thailand in Bangkok, and I won't need, I'll be wearing shorts and a t-shirt, but I have to take the coat because when I go to Japan, I will need the coat. Um, not a most efficient way of traveling, but it is what we are doing. So um this one is gonna be a little bit short today because again, I am jumping on a plane here in a few hours, and I've got a 27-hour travel day ahead of me. I have to go from here, Chicago, straight to Tokyo. From Tokyo, I have a six or seven hour layover, then down to Bangkok, uh, which is another seven or eight hours. So it's uh all told about 27 hours, I think, give or take. And then I don't know what I'm doing. So I'm leaving uh tod uh today is the 23rd of Chicago. I will be back in uh be back in Chicago on the 20th give or take of uh December. So I'm gonna be gone for a month, but between landing in Bangkok and my round trip, I don't really have a round trip, my leaving ticket is coming out of Tokyo a month from now. I have no idea what I'm doing in the middle of that. So I'm just gonna take a leap of faith. There's a phrase I heard uh a long time ago now that sometimes you just gotta jump off the cliff and build wings on the way down. And I I kind of I kind of subscribe to that. My wife says I'm I'm very proud of that, the fact that I have no idea what I'm doing. And I guess she's kind of right. I I kind of pride myself on that ability to just uh just roll, just go with it. So uh we're gonna roll with today's show and roll right into some of the questions. Again, if you've ever, if you've never been here before, thank you for joining. This is my Sunday morning show where I just take a handful of questions. I've either had someone ask me, I've run across them on the internet or wherever the case may be, and sort of give my two cents on it and just my perspective. Not a fiery rhetoric show. It's just a uh casual Sunday morning show. So grab yourself some coffee and sit back and uh let's go. So let's see, what can we start the uh show off with today? So I'm gonna start this one up. This is uh Espresso Asana is their uh username. It says, why are we not taxing the church? I you know, that is a really good question. And I think a lot of atheists default to that position of why aren't we why aren't we taxing the church? And I honestly don't have a great answer for that. I've tried to think through that and I can see the just charity. Let's not call it a church, let's call it any charity at all. Why do we not tax charities? And I think there's some legal perspective there of where people are giving their money. So if I'm giving you money, um, say you're a person on the street and you you ask, you know, for$10, and I give you$10. Well, should my gift to you be taxed? Um and no, we would say no. It's a gift, right? People are gifting their money to the church. So on one hand, I am sort of in favor of not taxing just because, again, it's a gift, it's a charity, I understand it. But I think most of us tend to look at a church with a hundred thousand dollar light and sound system, or the the minister has a very expensive car, far more expensive sometimes than anybody in the actual um the uh in the uh the church, the uh parishioners could afford. And you got to think, oh boy, that just seems to go against the spirit of giving money, right? I don't know. I'm I I come down on the side of we should tax churches, but I could be convinced to go back to the other side. But yeah, I grew up in town in Jacksonville, Florida, and the uh first Baptist church downtown owned a lot of big buildings. They had a fairly large stadium type of uh or arena type of uh church, and they were very powerful at the time. I don't know if they are now, but they were at the time. They sort of ran the downtown. And my understanding was because of the buildings they owned, they generated a lot of income from those buildings. There does become a point where you're not just a small town preacher, you're running an organization, an operation that requires very little oversight and there's no taxes, you sell no products. It's very hard to uh to look at that. One time years ago, when I was a financial advisor, I was going uh with another financial advisor, a senior person there at the office, and he sort of showed me the ropes. And he said, You were gonna go down to this area uh called Springfield in Jacksville, Florida. And one of my clients is down there. We're gonna talk to him about his retirement planning, yada, yada, yada, right? And I remember thinking instantly, I'm about 26 at the time. So this is right around 96. Uh, I remember thinking, what? We're gonna go to Springfield, which is not at the time and really not now, known for having a lot of money. I thought, well, that's interesting. We have this financial advisor, he's gonna go to Springfield, and he's gonna talk to this guy that's a preacher, I should have said that, about his financial planning. And I remember being blown away. Now, again, I'm 26. This is a 96. And we talked to this old man, he's a preacher at this uh relatively small church, and he had like$500,000 in his church. Uh I don't know if it was a 401k, I guess it wouldn't have been because it was charity, but nonetheless, uh, his church retirement fund. And I thought, well, how in the heck did he get$500,000 in the church fund, church retirement fund? Not money he's put aside on his own, but money that the church has given him and has, of course, grown. But yeah, and I don't since then, through being in the financial industry in various uh capacities, there is a lot of free money that flows towards the ministers and the pastors. Um, in the mortgage world, which I also spend a lot of time in, it is very common to give a great deal of money to a pastor as housing expense. And I'm talking thousands of dollars sometimes. And there's some probably some IRS rules about it, but I have seen five, six, seven thousand dollars a month in housing expenses, in expensive towns, but nonetheless. Everybody else, we have to pay for our mortgage money because it comes to us taxed. This was given to them as an expense, so it's untaxed. There's a point where that just feels wrong, right? It just feels corrupt. I just can't quite get on board with that. Again, I could probably be persuaded to go back and forth, and maybe it's just circumstantial. You know, maybe there's a certain point where, you know, if a church brings in X dollars and it's not taxed, if it brings over X, then it's a you know a graduated tax. I don't know, but yeah, it's very frustrating when you see a very large organization that's bigger than most normal businesses that are taxed, and here they are because they're selling Jesus, they're not taxed. Yeah, I don't like that either. But uh espresso asana, good question. Now, here's another question that I'm gonna ask you for help on this one because I honestly don't know. And I said, Do you believe that Jesus actually existed? And this was one of those things where I try not to have a great opinion. I mean, I I'm about to give one, but I'm telling you, I'm giving you an opinion on the bits and pieces that I have been able to pick here and there. I have no scholarly knowledge on it. And one of the problems with this question, it's the reason I left this question in, even though I don't have a good answer for it, is it is almost impossible to find good information on this question. That that question, do you believe that Jesus existed? Try to look that up on the internet. The the passion for a Jesus and the passion for the image of Jesus that we have now, which is this mighty figure that was revered throughout the land, and you know, everybody was aware of him and his his uh following and this, that, and the other. I don't believe that happened at all. From everything I've been able to read, that just did not happen because there are no contemporary, meaning contemporary at the time, no contemporary um uh what's the word I'm looking for? Uh information. I'm looking for a better word there, but you know, uh writings and reports of a Jesus that had that level of, as the kids would say, Riz. Um, could there have been a man uh that basically this Jesus role and that was a preacher of some sort and he had, you know, a small following? Sure, sure. You know, that'd be like any random preacher in the middle of Nebraska, you know. Is he gonna live throughout time? Probably not. It doesn't mean he didn't exist. He's just he didn't make a big mark at the time. I think Jesus is more likely to have been that if he existed at all. I don't have the scholarly background to know if he did or not. But again, try to look that up on the internet. It's impossible to get good information. Everybody will tell you that yes, of course he existed, and then of course he did this, and of course he walked on water, and of course he and like, okay, well, now you're just repeating the Bible. That's not the same. That's not the same at all. It's a great story, and if you want to believe it, then knock yourself out. But that doesn't make it a true story, that doesn't make the person true. And this was 2,000 years ago, right? So was there a real person? Hmm, you know, I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt. Why not? Why not? I don't think he was completely made up, but I I also have I am under no illusions that this person, if they existed, had any of these magical powers that we associate with Jesus nowadays. So but I'm curious if you have an opinion on that. And and if you have an objective opinion, um, you know, and and again, I'm probably asking a question that's almost impossible to get a fair answer from. But if you're a you're a believer, then you clearly believe Jesus existed. Okay, I get it. But when you look at the evidence and real evidence, evidence that you would accept in any other situation, does that really look provable to you? Or are you going with 100% faith? Because the Bible is mostly the only thing. I I think there's some couple other references that came about decades after his death. My understanding, and I could be incorrect, but my understanding is there are no contemporary records or references to him in any um any political in terms of government uh markings. No other contemporary writers referenced him at the time of his life or death. It was only many decades later that he began to evolve into this figure. And then, of course, it was even hundreds of years that the story evolved even more. So was there a germ of an idea there? I don't know. Maybe. Was there a real person with all these magical powers? Uh, absolutely not. I don't believe that for a second. Alrighty, let's go to another one. This one is from Leading Occasion 428. Okay. Those names sometimes trip me out. Leading Occasion 428. Uh, this person says, this may be a weird freedom after leaving Christianity, but I'm glad I can sing and dance to secular music now. They go on to say, when I was a Christian, well, a casual Christian, I used to do uh line dances like the Cha-Cha Slide or the Cupid Shuffle. When I was trying to get closer to God and be more serious about my faith, I thought that God was convicting me of dancing only to secular music and never to Christian music, especially during worship music, because I was afraid I might catch the Holy Spirit. So I thought maybe I should just quit dancing altogether. That's interesting to me. I that thing has always been very odd to me. I grew up in the 80s in terms of uh sort of as I was a teenager. I was a teenager in the 80s, and that was during the the uh the PMRC, the people that put the uh the labels on records, and there was a lot of talk. I remember, and this is during the 80s sort of heavy metal era. I mean, and I was a heavy metal kid, I loved heavy metal, and all the hairbands that sort of evolved from that as well. But that the uh the idea of churches coming down on Judas Priests, and that was when you were supposed to be able to spin the records backwards, and it would play devil, you know, sort of comments, which was always the dumbest thing to me. Like, who's playing a record backwards, anyways? I how I mean, it was so stupid. It was one of those things when you spun the record backwards, if you told me it said, you know, you gotta fix your washing machine, and I'd eventually hear it because you've just planted that into my head. But of course they would plant in, oh, you know, this person is the devil, or I am worshiping the devil. And come on, so silly and stupid. But the dancing, you know, dancing to secular music. Oh my gosh, all secular music must be from the devil. That always seemed ridiculous to me. There's a lot of great secular songs that have nothing to do with anything evil or untoward in any way. And there's a lot of I'm I'm sure there's a lot of good Christian music. Um, I mean, there's certainly a lot of good Christian music in the song in terms of just hymns and things of this nature. I love like the the uh amazing grace. When my kids were babies, I would sing that song to really kind of hum it to them because it's a very soothing song, right? But why can't kids maybe the question is why can't they dance? Why is that a problem? You see a baby, you I'm sure we've all seen this on you know it on TikTok or YouTube or something, or yourself, when you have your own babies, your own children, and they're old enough to sort of stand. You know, if you get some good rhythm music, the baby just starts to move. There's something about music that humans just respond to, which is why all cultures have music. And is that of the devil? That that is that is wildly bizarre to me. But I mean, I uh it's not uh it's not an uncommon thing, right? That people aren't allowed to dance. And again, if they are, they're not allowed to listen to secular music. They have to listen to Christian music, which, you know, again, as a kid who grew up in the 80s and a heavy metal fan, uh, Christian rock was just never had never quite worked for me. Again, there are some good bands. There was a band, Striper, if you're old enough to remember that, which makes you, you know, makes you very old, which means your back probably hurts at this point. If you remember the band Striper, they were a metal band in the 80s, and I think they're still around in one variation or another. I don't know who's still in it, but they were supposedly a Christian rock band. Now, I understand later on they sort of got away from that term, but I think it was more like they think themselves they were a rock band of people that happen to be Christian, which is probably not uncommon for a lot of rock bands, but they had a little bit more of a Christian perspective and they kind of marketed that for a while. My understanding is they did sort of back off that idea, but okay, but again, why can't what's wrong with secular music? The fact that it's not being sung in a church doesn't make it bad. You want to argue about some lyrics, okay, fine, I will give you that. There are some lyrics and some music that's not particularly good if you're trying to be a good, proper Christian and you've got various rules you need to follow. Okay, I'm I'm fine with that. But come on, plenty of secular music that's not Christian by nature, but that's still very good. Very good songs and good singers and just beautiful music. Why, why cut that out? So this person saying that they have some freedom now to dance and to sing to secular music uh when they stop being a uh a Christian. This is in an ex-Christian subreddit. I think that's really interesting and and good for them. Good for them, because it opens up a world of of music that they uh they maybe didn't have before. This is kind of a funny question. And I again don't know the answer to this, but I agree with their question here. This question is why are most Satanists goth or alt? And I you know, I I have zero studies to back that up, but I'm I'm gonna go with, yeah, it does seem that way. When you picture a person who's claiming to be a Satanist, they all tend to look like they're in a costume of some sort. Why is that? I I don't know. I'm I'm I find people who dress in costumes, and I'm using air quotes that you cannot see, but when I find groups they dress in costumes, I find that interesting, um funny, fascinating. There's a whole different list of words I have for that. And I'll give you a good example of uh I grew up in again in Florida, as I mentioned. So we're uh Jacksonville is about 90 miles from Daytona. So every year there'd be two major events in Daytona. One is spring break. So all these kids would come down from colleges all over the north, and they'd come down where it was warm to Daytona. But the other thing that I think always happened was it either right before spring break or right after, I think it was before spring break, would be bike week. And some of these, sometimes these two weeks would almost end up right on top of each other. I mean, literally be one week would be a hundred thousand bikers there, and the next week's a hundred thousand college kids. So very uh interesting uh bookends to that thing. But the bikers to me are just like these goth kids. Um there's a weird undercurrent that runs through the bikers and the goth and they say the punks from the old days and this, that, and the other. You know, they they raise their fists and they they rage and like say, you know, we're we're not gonna conform to your rules, blah, blah, blah. And then they all wear the same clothes. I mean, go to Daytona and Bike Week and try to spot the person not wearing a Harley Davidson shirt and not wearing some denim, you know, uh sleeveless vest, or uh not wearing or not driving the same type of bike. You don't go down there with a bunch of um crotch rocket bikes. You go down there with a Harley that look like every other hundred thousand Harleys down there. Um, you know, it's it's a very much a costume. You put on your Harley independent, uh, I'm not gonna conform to society, and then you conform to a society. It might be a subset of society, but you conform to it nonetheless, right? It's it's kind of silly. So yeah, when I think of like Satanists and people that are sort of, you know, proclaim that they are Satanists, um, they do tend to look like goth people and they've put on this bizarre costume. Aaron Ra, or R, I think he goes by Aaron Ra is a famous atheist. He has a YouTube channel, has for years. You look at that guy, you're like, yeah, I totally picture you as a Satanist. I don't know if he's a Satanist or what he is, but he has a look, it's a very specific look, but it's also a similar look that uh a lot of people have. And again, the people that tend to say that they are very independent and they are very unique and they are just living their own lives and they're not following rules, and they look like a lot of other people. In fact, you put those exact same people in the room and they all look like the same group. They all were issued the same costume at the door, right? I always find that very interesting. It sort of fascinates me as to why they do that. I will not figure it out. All right, let's go to another question here. So this is a little bit of a lengthy here. Let's I'll just read to the title of this question. Um, no name on this person, but uh from an ex-Christian subreddit. Let's say hypothetically, if God does exist and he knows everything that is ever going to happen to all the lives he made, then God created a bunch of people just for them to go to hell in the end. Yeah. Yeah, right? This is if God knows everything that's gonna happen, then he made people just to go to hell. Doesn't that sound messed up? Yeah, it is kind of messed up, isn't it? I've never understood that as well. It's something else that's always sort of bothered me with the general concept of a God that knows everything and sees all and knows exactly what's gonna happen next. Even if you give free will, which is something I I again, maybe I ask you guys, you hear this all the time. You know, God gave you free will. But then the same person will turn around and say, God knows everything you're about to do. If he didn't, how would he change the streetlights to avoid the wreck, right? Because he knows exactly what everyone is going to do from every moment going forward, right? And there's even that he knew you in the womb kind of thing, where they basically the idea is that God knows from your beginning to your end. He knows when you're gonna die, he knows everything, right? But at the same time, he gave you free will. Well, I mean, maybe. I guess you could come put the two together. You have the choice to do what you want, I guess, under free will, but he knows the choice you're gonna make. But if he knows that's going to happen and he knows you're ultimately going to end up in hell, what's the point? I mean, literally, what is the point? Which goes back to a question I I've always had, which is if God is a creator, why make man? I mean, if you look at just the Ten Commandments, which isn't the best sort of thing to use to give this overall philosophical uh answer here, but if you look at the Ten Commandments, you know, the first four are all about worshiping a God. Well, if I'm a God, I've if I'm the God, let's say, for Christianity, if I'm the God and I am in control of everything that ever is and ever was and ever will be, do I really need a bunch of just ants, essentially? I mean, things that are so far beneath me, worshiping me? Is it any different than me really opening or you know, starting a little ant farm and hoping those ants look up to me? Who cares? They're ants. I mean, they have no value to me in a greater sense because I am so far above the level of an ant that whether they worship me or not is really just completely immaterial. But why would I make them knowing that their destiny is to go to hell? What's the point of that? I really even I just don't understand the need for human beings. What is what does God get out of human beings other than praise? And if that's the case, that's a little, I don't know, not a little needy, isn't it? I mean, really? Really? I mean, it's it's yeah, it's really strange. It'd be like me and my wife creating children just so they can praise us. That, yeah, I don't get it. And maybe someone will spin that around. Say, no, no, God made man so he could love us. Maybe, but you're putting a little bit more human sort of perspective because once you go down that road, you got all kinds of other problems that pop up, right? God's supposed to be not susceptible to sort of the human emotions, right? Um, because that implies sexuality and everything else. I mean, you get to a lot of weird areas that most people don't want to go. So God created humans knowing that X percent are going to go to hell and spend eternity in hell, he knows that. Not that he wishes they wouldn't, he knows full well they will. So why create them in the first place? What does he or the human get out of that? And if I didn't ask to be born, in the sense that you know I didn't ask to be a human, I didn't ask to exist, I have no choice in that matter. Why put me through the the process of having to choose and the the um the 50-50 shot I've got is to burn in hell for all eternity. That's a 50-50 shot. I only got two places I go, right? And that's one of them. And I have to spend 80 years, give or take, of my life making sure I don't end up there with a bunch of arbitrary and very vague rules written down by people 2,000 years ago that my friend Mike always says didn't know where the sun went at night. I have to follow those rules. Why? Yeah, I don't know. It's a very strange debate. You know, something else that's always bothered me as I'm sort of saying this and thinking about it. Um people, you know, they they point to the the uh what's the word they uh use? Intelligent design, right? Intelligent design. I don't know if I hear that as much as I used to, but for a long time I felt like I heard that constantly about intelligent design, meaning God or some sort of you know all-powerful being created the humans um and the animals and the plants, blah, blah, blah. All basically right there in Genesis, right? But it was intelligent design. We are intelligently designed and they will use different things, like, you know, the eyeball is so perfectly formed, this, that, and the other. Well, it is, but tell me that when I have to put my contacts in. Tell me how perfect it is, you know. Tell me how perfect it is when my blood sugar is too high, regardless of what I do. It's just my body stops producing insulin, you know. Tell me that when I get uh cancer, you know, or anything else, it starts to fail. Your bones start to get brittle, your limbs and your tendons and stuff start to stiffen up through arthritis and things of this nature. That's intelligent design because, and here's where I'm going with this: if I was sitting down with a pencil and some paper to design something, why wouldn't I just make it indestructible? What's the point of having it fall apart? That's I you know, no human on earth would ever design a machine that falls apart, right? And if that machine, again, going back to the earlier part of this question, is for the machine to worship me, well, why would it have it break down at all? I would just litter the popular the earth with a million machines that worship me from sunup to sundown, and they never die. They don't need to even reproduce. I just put a million on there. I can put another million to bar if I felt like it. What's the point of the human frailty and the destructibility of a human body and all the other animals as well? But we're talking about humans. I don't really understand that. It doesn't seem to help the humans out very much. It causes us nothing but heartbreak and and pain and and everything else. As our loved ones die, and as we break down and we eventually die, I don't know. Just one of those weird things I think about every once in a while, but it is one of those logical questions to me. Like, really, what's the point of that? All right, so this is from Ralph Humphreys. Ralph is a uh frequent commenter, and so Ralph, if you're listening to this, I do appreciate you always jumping in and with your thoughts and your uh your questions. So he says, hey, I was he says, hey guys, I was thinking about things and just got to be honest, I was a Christian for 24 years and I never really got it. I've been deconstructing for nine months and I have no desire to go back. He said it's been a journey. I'm an eight, I'm an atheist now for a while, and I'm thinking maybe I'm at the point of being upset with myself and the Bible and all the people who have left me because I don't believe. And I'm realizing they were never close friends or family. Any suggestions that for that and any suggestions that might help? Yeah, it's been difficult in my own journey, but with no one to talk to about it. Any suggestions? So Ralph brings up a very good point, and it's not an uncommon and it's unfortunately very sad. Um a lot of Christians, and again, we always talk about Christians on this show because that's just who I grew up around, you know, so I have more perspective. But believers in general, there is a tendency to separate the believers from the non. So, you know, and I've talked about this many times. Um, we have a group here in Chicago that we get together and meet a handful of times a year. Um, we had a party month or so ago here at my house uh for people like um from our group. These are atheists. And one of the reasons we have that is because when you grew up in a Christian group and you go to Sunday school and you go to this, that, and the other within the church, and it turns out your parents are there, your friends are there, it becomes a big part of your social network. Sometimes, depending on where you live, it might be your whole social network outside of say work or school. Everyone you interact with is from church. Super common. I have zero problem with that necessarily. I mean, I could say expand your horizons a bit, but okay. But if you're in that bubble and all of a sudden, say, like like um um Ralph here, and and you decide to leave that group, well, those people that were so close to you will sometimes basically shun you, just to use that word, because now you're very often looked at as sort of antichrist, and really, they don't want anything to do with you, you know, lest some of your your your devil worshipping atheism, which is what they always say, uh, would rub off on them or make them question faith or present them with uncomfortable questions. And you will sometimes find yourself out in the cold. So again, one of the reasons we started our group here in Chicago and started having these meetups and these group sort of social gatherings, and purely social. We don't do any agenda. We just get together and hang out, was just to give people that that uh sort of a replacement, just a place to hang out around like-minded people where they don't have to worry about what they say religiously speaking, right? Um, but what Ralph's experiencing is yeah, he was a I don't know how old Ralph is, but let's just say he is 24 or 25, I guess, because he's saying he was a Christian for 24 years. Let's assume that's from baby. That I don't know Ralph personally. But nonetheless, so he's in his mid-20s or so, and he finds all the people that were his friends and his family and everything else, when he came and became an atheist or came out as an atheist, they stopped associating with him or pulled away. And that can be very, very upsetting. In fact, I will guarantee you there are X amount of people out there that are atheists. They do not believe, but they cannot leave the church because that giving those people up, those friends, and I'm using air quotes around the friends, um, or the family, that the consequences of giving that up are worse than, at least they believe, worse than not living their true life. I find that sad. I I liken it to someone who has to be in the closet. You know, you're a gay person in a community that would not handle that, and you have to live in the closet. It's got to be very frustrating. You want to tell somebody, you want to breathe easy, you don't want to expose yourself accidentally, uh, and you don't want to face the grief of coming out. And unfortunately, there's a lot of people that have had to live through that, as again, within LGBTQ uh community. And it's really not much different with atheist because same thing. You could have family kick you out, you could have the church kick you out, you can have your friends stop talking to you. That's a lot to give up. And for for Ralph to answer his question about um, you know, any advice on that, I would say find a group. And it's easier said than done sometimes because if you're in a small town, a group of atheists is going to be impossible to find. So I always suggest find your local or your uh nearest big city and look for a meetup group or a Facebook group or any kind of online group that you can start to talk to, or look for a wider online group. That's fine too. I I suggested to Ralph, you're welcome to join any of these conversations and ask us questions. We are more than happy to answer you as best we can. We'll just give you that uh sort of shoulder to lean on and say, okay, here's what I'm going through, here's what I'm thinking. And it's one of the reasons we do the unholy round table, is exactly for that question, uh Ralph, which is we've all been down that road. So if you're struggling with some aspect of it, ask us on one of those shows. We are all happy to answer your questions on that or give you our two cents on it. Um, but if you're in an area, and I don't know where Ralph lives, but if you're in an area, say in say that you were close to Chicago, then join our group and come to one of our meetups and hang out with us, just so that you have somebody else so you can say, ah, I can relax a little bit. I don't have to pretend that I'm going to church tomorrow morning, you know. I don't have to wear a cross around my neck, you know, I don't have to, you know, hold hands with somebody at when I'm eating at McDonald's just because we have to pray before I eat my Big Mac, you know? Find a group like ours and just jump in. Jump in with both feet. What do you have to lose? I mean, it can't be worse, right? Um, does that mean everybody in the group you're gonna like? No. I mean, there's people in my group I don't like them. I just don't get along with them. We share atheism, but that doesn't mean I have to be their best friend. But there are other people in my group that I consider absolutely my best friends, people I love being around, and I can't wait till the next time we see them. My wife and I hang out with them uh all through the years. And again, we've been doing this for 10 years. People that um quite frankly, one of the reasons my wife and I moved back to Chicago after living in California and Texas is we miss these people. You know, we miss this group because we had so many friends and they were atheists, and the amount of atheism we talk to them about is almost zero. But we know that we get along, and that is the thing that brought us together. That's fine. It's no different than people that flock together because they are Christians, or people that flock together because they like opera, or people that flock together because of whatever the thing is, they like gardening. That's fine. These people just share a world perspective, and world view is really not the right word, but a perspective on atheism, which is a lack of belief or lack of proof. You've not shown me proof that I believe that a God exists. That's essentially what it is. And therefore, we don't live by these various rules that religious people put on themselves. That's all fine and dandy if they want to do it, but we decide not to do it. So sometimes finding other people that follow that same perspective and say, you know, okay, yes, I can relax. I don't have to go to Sunday school and I'm allowed to dance. I can go to a dance club and I can do this, or you know, I can I can raise my kids this way or the other way, you know, just having some people that think similarly is nice. So, so my my advice to Ralph and anybody else out there like that is find a group like ours in your area. And again, you might have to go to a big city to find that, but put some effort in finding it. One of the best things, because the internet could be the best or worst thing sometimes, but one of the best things about the internet is you can find people like you across the land, across the world, quite frankly. In fact, I was talking to a guy today that I've never met, will likely probably never meet. He lives in Dubai. He's in a food group that I'm in, and we've just sort of, you know, struck up an online friendship. And every once in a while he'll send me a picture of, in fact, he sent me something today about camel meat. I I, you know, I'm am I ever gonna eat camel meat? Probably not, but it fascinates me that he's eating it, and I never met this guy. Again, I will probably never meet him, but thanks to the you know, the genius of the internet, I'm allowed to, you know, I'm able to have this conversation back and forth with him. Same thing if you were an atheist. Find these people. I've got a gentleman, I think I did uh a conversation where I meant I mentioned him one time not too long ago, um, that's in India. Again, someone I probably never meet, but he and I exchange uh you know comments back and forth. We text each other back and forth with different things. Perfectly lovely guy. But I will probably never meet him. But I met him on the internet through some atheist groups, and and I now, you know, I consider him an online friend. That's fine. So do that, Ralph. And again, if everybody else is listening, use that sort of thing. Use the resources you have at your disposal. We are out there. We're out there in greater numbers than people would like to believe, than would like to think. And even if you are in a small town, there's other ones just like you there too. It's just hard to find. That's the problem. So I always say go to the local, your your nearest large city where people can be a little bit more comfortable. And you're gonna find more of us out there. But there's again, for the rest of it though, um, you're right, people will drop you, people will stop talking to you. And it's up to you how you want to deal with those people. Are they are they your friends? You know, if they're willing to drop you over something like that, I would question that, right? I think you're right to put quotes around friends. If they are not willing to talk to you, they know that you're a good person, they know that you're you're warm and you're friendly and you're compassionate and you have empathy for people. And the only thing that separates you from that what they knew yesterday is they now realize you don't believe in God, and that's enough for them to stop talking to you. Yeah, well, I would say they're probably not your friends. Can't really change family, they're still gonna be your brother, they're still gonna be your cousin, still gonna be your uncle, whatever the case may be. But that doesn't mean you have to hang out with them. You're not obligated to do that, not at all. And if that person is making your life harder or less fun, don't do it. Don't do it. Why? What's the point? You only got X amount of years on this planet, you know? Why waste it stressing over people that apparently don't value you enough? So that is my two cents for uh for Ralph. And I think I'm gonna wrap it up again for the uh for the day because I gotta go and jump on. Well, I gotta pack a little bit. I'm a terrible person. I wait to the last minute and pack, but I also pack very light. I'm taking a month vacation through Asia, multiple countries, I'm taking a single backpack. So for those of you that travel with like 27 bags, like you're you know, getting on the Titanic, uh, no, take a backpack, something you can easily get in and out of planes, trains, and automobiles, and that's all you really need. You really don't need everything you thought you needed. And guaranteed, if you're in a country, um, chances are I bet they got deodorant there. I bet they got toothpaste there. I bet they got underwear in that country as well. You know, so if you forget something or just don't want to bring it because it's too heavy and it starts to add up, yeah, leave half of it behind. If you're going all the way across the country like I am, I've spent, I don't even know. I don't even want to tell you. A few thousand bucks easy on just plane tickets. If I have to buy$50 worth of clothes and toiletries when I get there, that's that's that's a drop in the bucket, right? Uh compared to my plane tickets, right? Then I got hotels and I got food and this, that, and the other. So if I have to buy some deodorant or I have to buy whatever, some socks, uh, you know, I I can probably spring for the socks, right? So, anyways, uh, anyways, I'm getting on the plane here later on. So I'm gonna try to get you another one out uh while I'm gone, but I may not do this every week. So uh, but look for the next one. You'll see down there. In the meantime, I hope you have a great rest of your Sunday. And also don't forget to check us out at atheistville.com. That's our central hub where we have this show and the unholy round table and the blogs that we produce. You can find all that right there, and I'll link you out to the various places. And also do us a favor, make sure you like the show and give us a good rating. It helps more people find us. And one final question and one final request, leave me a comment. Leave anybody, uh any of our guests a comment. We love to answer those, and we will make sure we get to you as just as quickly as possible. We really do like engaging with you and hearing what you have to say, whether you agree with us or not. I always say that. Whether you agree with us or not, that's fine. I just I will promise you that you will have a civil response from me. So, again, have a great rest of your Sunday and thank you very much. Take care.